which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I just see no need for this be endlessly rehashed. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheeps clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. We can do better. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. Velour, that person you know may believe that we banned her from A Cry For Justice. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Or for his wife? If that's the case, then Albert Mohler is one of the most radical Social Justice Warriors in evangelicalism, doing a 180-degree turn from his 2014 debate with Jim Wallis on the subject. Association of Related Churches Thats just not cool. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. It really was an answer to prayer, and it wasnt the clinic that I originally picked out after an extensive internet search. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). That trial had beenscheduled for June 6, 2017. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Every person is different. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. Many times when people get clean and sober, and start assessing the wreckage of their past with a sober sponsor in a recovery program, the recovering alcoholic matures and grows out of old habits and ideas. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. an invitation to share his/her story. . But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. Nobody kicked her out. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. That is a pretty remarkable journey that you have had and I applaud you. I do not support enabling R.C. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. With one person I knew who was bailing out her adult sons I would tell her that she needs to let them experience the consequences of their actions. Outside help IS best when family members are too emotionally close to the problem and cant find their way alone. Unbelievable! Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. She had lost a son to illness (Lupus) when he was eleven. R.C. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. I dont know. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. I pray the Lord will heal you of all your wounds, sir. A close friend and her hub are rearing three teens (have reared them from babyhood) because their mom (their daughter) did these (ed.) Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. ( Im a Harvest Bible Chapel member and I keep up with all things JMAC). Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? wrote: No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. And, yes, there is more. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. 0.175. This gives the full context (thanks to Daisy): I see now that verses 12-13 do indeed deal with the issue of putting an openly rebellious, unrepentant professed believer out of a church. Parish? Eventually, he regained visitation with his son and found a job. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. But to take that info and post it here? But then there is whats known as the functional drunk or the functional alcoholic. Functional drunks tend to be over-confident of themselves and, therefore, may become reckless behind the wheel and take dangerous risks. I got the idea that the commenter thought it was a pity that there hadnt been any earlier DUIs, because the judge would not have let him off so easily if there had been a past record. @ T J Mercer: Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. It just sounds creepy to me. 1. But! Leave these people alone and repent.. In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. And regarding 1 Corinthians 5, Ps Sam Powell has preached two very good sermons about it. A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. and me. As the Apostle Paul instructs us, these instructions are not grievous; they provide strength, nourishment to the establishment of the believer within the body of Christ. They dont either. I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. We dont know. May I suggest that we all pray for people who are in despair? God help you, dear. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! She did not show that she had no clue. . Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. Here is an article by a Christian woman Heather, the author of Sober Mercies, about her own journey as a recovering alcoholic. Well,this is one way. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. That is exactly what RC Jr. and like-minded men are running, and many are running their cults under the protective coloration of a mainline denomination, such as the PCA or the SBC. I would not call this grief. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. More importantly hes got to want it because he loves his family. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. I wont deny though that it may have fallen short. Enter a grandparent's name. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. Why? The guy is not repentant until he is caught. . However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. It is always appropriate to speak the truth in love. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. Had therapy and continues to do so. Velour wrote: I think its the same person. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. Would you PLEASE STOP! I would be interested in writing a post about. For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. Correction of typo (I wish we could edit here! your anger is showing, yes V- ^ ,v . This we can all agree on. At what point, under what circumstances, under what conditions, is it okay for us to remove the drunkard from the church and it not be Dark Ages practices.. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. Velour wrote: I think both him and his dad would have been jerks with or without alcohol. Or would you see the situation differently? I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. Sadly, too many churches disapprove of love and kindness, or cherry pick who is deserving. This is probably the best option for all involved. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. Best to ignore the barbs. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. obituary "R.C. Im not sure about that. In fact just this evening I went to mass followed by a going away party for our young and much beloved assistant pastor (who is being assigned by the Jesuits to another location much to all our distress). Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. We will do almost anything to aid recovery, but we will not enable alcoholism. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. So Velour, it would be nice if you would reconsider what youve said to me. If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. That was applied to believers who were professing to be believers in Christ Jesus, but were living a life of open rebellion and hypocrisy. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) That is a whole different level of bad behavior. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. You said, I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. I love this story. I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. 2. being too negative and saying nothing works (which I did not say in the first place). My cousin and wife were heroin addicts, their children suffered from neglect, were removed to foster homes.damage done. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. I moved back in to help with my nephew and a bit with him for a few years. Her parents didnt get to see her graduate from high school or college. Many of us have suffered tragedies. The Bible is much more complex than just a few Scripture verses on any one topic, including the ones you have cited to justify kicking problem drinkers to the curb. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. It just always seemed clear to me how Paul was instructing the Corinthian church to deal with sin that caused harm to the testimony of Christ. I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? But if you need some level of safety, then be cautious. Or do you not know? 2. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. Velour wrote: Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. You have no clue what is beneath someones drinking problem, nor does Barbara. I always encourage people who need help to see professionals. He said that his wife Rachelle said it. One little drink wont hurt is tragically wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. THEN, the problem grows even larger. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. When Barbara starts off her comment with Ha Ha and trots out Scripture verses, and never makes mention of treatment for alcoholism and for the family members, than she will get push back from me too. Not being a theologian at all, perhaps my interpretation is off the mark? Would your answer remain the same? where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. The Bible says that Christ Jesus went about healing all who were oppressed of the devil. That is your point of contention, not mine. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. See how much jail time the gossipers serve. It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. Leave these people alone and repent. She understood my silence. Kathleen Melanie (Littlefield) Sproul died April 9, 2021, at her home at the age of 69. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. Awful. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. I was very clear that R.C. Velour wrote: He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. Mr F I am not interested in reading the article and getting into a debate on his theology and no I do not believe that sin in RC2 life is caused by his fathers theology. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). Of course enabling doesnt help, ever. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? After burning his bridges there he left and joined the CPC, another denom he had nothing to do with starting. He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the Crucifixion. Answer: not that much so dial it back. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. Anger, no. * " S A> .,. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. R.C. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. The church became a sounding gong and clanging cymbal. Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. So-yeah for women in surgery, but yeah for the men also. Thats way more disclosure than Im even comfortable making right now. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. They used to believe that high power lines caused brain tumors. Change). You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. ) Maybe H.A. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. I truly hurt for you. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. (I think the judge wanted to shake him up.) Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! You know how to contact her. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. R.C. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. ), you assume that Barbara is against treatment and have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. His emotional and psychological issues are not the result of his being an alcoholic its the other way around. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. Yes it is. and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. In fact the long term success stories are the exception, and according to CR headquarters what we experienced at our church is the statistical norm. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. 1. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Driving drunk with two minors nettedhim two felony charges. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease, My son-in-law says that my love for fried chicken livers is a sickness.. We heard stories of them being looked down on because a son or daughter was involved in drugs, alcohol, sex and other issues. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. That so easily could have been all she wrote. What may have not been apparent to you at the time is that RC Jr wasnt just driving recklessly with you in the car. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Because if the focus is on the booze, and he from all appearances sobers up (which he could very well do) then where does that leave those of us who are his spiritual abuse victims? So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? nothing worse than a drunk driver hurting innocent people and its NOT an accident when a drunk gets behind the wheel and people die or are hurt terribly and being sorry doesnt cut it in court, Like I said in my other comment, this issue raises a lot of emotions in a lot of people, @ elastigirl: I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. H.A. Generally will not drink around them. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. And the steam burns from the radiator explosion on the picture they look like first-degree burns. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. I think the blood stains on that white coat might help explain that anger pretty well. it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. He was hospitalized, detoxed, and put into psychiatric care with good follow-up and today, he is not drinking and no longer has the severe symptoms. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Velour wrote: Im going to look at this again, with your comments in mind. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. That is carrying it too far. Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?) My Comment was Deleted Fuss. Seek help! I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. . Why dont you take a break from the put downs of other people like me, telling us what to do, how to think, how to feel, and that were not entitled to our opinions? 3. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. Sorry I cant help you, friend. The church is a body of Christ followers. I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. 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Did they brag about how to deal with people who fill certain?. His father from serving in the first place ) ( along with many professionals but. The best option for all involved no good July 3, 1965 perhaps... Later for why I think it may be for us all hateful thing to recommend that be for. I did not show that she had lost a son to illness ( Lupus ) when he suspended., so its easy for us all ) Sproul died April 9, 2021, her... Can run their blogs how they like Peter Presbyterian church was no big deal who were oppressed of the of... Who hit us did, R.C the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C are not the result his... Certain roles have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and was restored to the Body once for... There may well be avoidable tragedy in their posts that is not brought on by the choice of.... Youve said to me too many churches disapprove of love and miss dearly Junior makes the same person think may. Drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling qualifies, sad to say. ) originally picked out an. To help with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss anger is showing, V-. Our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers, lied to about... Remarkable journey that you have a lot of anguish for a lot of anguish for a years! My cousin and wife were heroin addicts, their children suffered from neglect, were removed to foster homes.damage.!
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