The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. Thank you very much, Trent. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. Christiaan Kappes. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Okay, Trent. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. Im not sure. Well, right. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. Good day, Trent. We wouldnt expect it. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. An interview with Steve Baughman. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Steve said that if Mary and Joseph had remained virgins, they would violate late St. Pauls teaching about marriage in First Corinthians Seven. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. I command that you do it. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. Yeah. Eastern Christianity, St Thomas Aquinas & The Immaculate Conception w/ Fr. Okay. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. This question comes from agoyforJesus. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Thank you, Steve. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. By: Rochester Business Journal Staff By Scott Pitoniak May 19, 2017. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. I mean, you got me on the spot. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. Okay. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Really enjoying this. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Thats fine. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. So feel free to answer that briefly. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. So Im going to cover four of them. Well, again, this is the exception. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. I think it will be. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. Okay, I get that. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. This is not the rule. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. Sure. So thats another one. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. September 16, 2018 by Randal. So I agree with that. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. . Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? So it still fits semantically. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. By that argument, St. Anne would also have to be immaculately conceived. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. Okay. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. January 07, 1964. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). I have also appeared several Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Alright? And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. So thats also a bad argument. 17. Yeah. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. Oh, wow. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. But its still the first movie. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. . In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. General Discussion (Forum) Main. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. Lets see how much we can get through. Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. Oh wow. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. Steve Christie also has his own website. SeanMcDowell.org. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. So lets take a look at them. All right. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Heres my thought on that. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. . And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians does. Verse seven teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since.... Argue that the use of the real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the dogmas the... And you, to be part of divine revelation it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries do... 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